Safari Reviews

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Elisa K   –  
United States US
Visited: May 2015 Reviewed: Jul 24, 2015

I would advise you not to book this company. Seriously, you'll thank me later.
1/5

We booked a 4 night budget safari to see the Serengeti, Ngorogoro Crater, and Lake Manyara. While the wildlife did not disappoint (thanks to our freelance drivers, who were excellent guides), the rest of the experience was pretty awful.

We got quotes from a bunch of different safari operators and Kiliholidays came in the cheapest. This should have been a red flag, but we are broke grad students so we decided to hire them. Unfortunately, we got what we paid for.

The vehicles were in a sorry state of disrepair and one of them lost a wheel - twice. The bolts were rusted and after hitting a big bump, the wheel would tear loose and bounce off into the bush. Instead of getting new bolts to fix the wheel, the drivers simply borrowed bolts from other wheels. We saw a couple vehicles from other tour operators get flat tires, but no one else on the road had a wheel come flying off.

We also had some customer service issues with the company owner, Mack. You may have noticed that he has written responses to the other bad reviews from our group (there were 8 of us total).

Feel free to read his responses, but as you do, remember that this is how he would talk to you if you had an issue on safari with his company. It's a lot of blathering and blame shifting, which is really not what you want to deal with when you're totally dependent on your tour operator and just trying to have an enjoyable vacation with friends.

In summary - we felt unsafe in the vans and we felt that Mack took advantage of the fact that we were (stupid American) tourists, dependent on Kiliholidays for food, shelter, and transportation. Don't make the same mistake we did - book with someone else!

Bryce   –  
Australia AU
Visited: July 2015 Reviewed: Jul 13, 2015

20-35 years of age  |  Experience level: 2-5 safaris

Not Value for Money
1/5

I honestly can't recommend this tour agency, or any of the other budget travel companies that do similar trips. A good budget operator is meant to cut the frills and provide cheap food and accommodation, but these guys (and all the others) are cutting the quality of the animal viewing experience in order to try and offer the cheapest trip. THIS ISN'T VALUE FOR MONEY

Firstly, the itinerary. All their budget itineraries only spend one or two nights at Seronera (Serengeti). This isn't enough time if you want to see the Wildebeest migration. The first full day in Seronera is always spent looking for cats, so you need a second day to drive out to visit the wildebeest herds, wherever they might be. They could be as far as the Grumeti River, which you can do as a long day. Don't bother asking the office about whether you will see the migration. I asked specifically if we would go to the grumeti river and Godfrey answered "You go to where the animals are". Well when I was on the trip, the animals were at the Grumeti River and it was never a part of the itinerary. I was lied to.

Also, Lake Manyara is entirely skippable. The itinerary only includes it because it's a super cheap day for the company. Save your money and skip this day, and pay for an extra day in Serengeti. Much better value.

Secondly, starting time. We left Arusha on our first day at 9am, arriving at Tarangire after 12pm. We started our second day to lake manyara at 8am and our thirday day to serengeti at 10am. On the fourth day there was a customer mutiny when our driver, Adam, suggested we start again at 8am. We demanded we start earlier and thankfully he agreed. This is the time we saw a large pride of lions. Many of the drivers are lazy and will try to start as late as they can get away with. The best viewing times are just after dawn, early in the morning.

Thirdly, communication. I noticed that many of the other drivers were constantly on their radios, getting tips from other drivers about the location of animals. I asked Adam why he never used the radio, he said it wasn't used much (a lie) and that he had a mobile phone for that purpose. Adam certainly made lots of phone calls but i doubt many (if any) of them were for finding game. He seemed to be on the phone a lot planning his next client trips.

Lastly, and most importantly, the agents and drivers will tell you all sorts of lies to try to convince you that you're getting the best possible experience even while they're doing the bare minimum. I asked Adam if we could spend our single full day in Serengeti driving out to the Grumeti River to see the Wildebeest. Adam could have told me the truth that this was a budget trip and that we didn't have the money for fuel, but instead he told me all sorts of lies. First that it was too far away, that you needed to go out there and spend the night, that you needed a plane to fly there, and lastly that there was no animals out there this time of year. These were all blatant lies. I spoke to other groups in the camp who had spent a day trip driving to Grumeti from Seronera and had seen the Wildebeest and river crossings. To rub salt in the wound, Adam tried to convince me that the resident herd of Wildebeest that we saw Ngorongoro Crater was "part of the migration". He clearly thinks his clients are stupid.

Adam really shouldn't be working with clients at all, not only does he lie about everything (he told us everyone had to leave Ngorongoro by 12pm, he just wanted to leave early), but he also gets very aggressive and argumentative with clients who try to question him about the itinerary. Once we realised we were getting a bad deal we all started to check and double check everything. He full on yelled at us bringing one lady to tears. It's never acceptable to speak to a client like this, even worse when everything you're telling them is a complete lie.

Adam should be avoided at all Costs, and this companies itineraries should be avoided to. My advice is to spend a bit of extra money and go with the mid range companies. Or if you really need to save money, form a group yourself and then go to a budget company with your own itinerary and be very clear with them about your expectations.

stelio   –  
United Kingdom UK
Visited: June 2015 Reviewed: Jul 12, 2015

20-35 years of age  |  Experience level: over 5 safaris

missold package
1/5

We have missold a Safari Package, we took the Kenya and Tanzania package as advertised on their website and we paid $1700 per person for 10 nights.
First of all Karibu Safari is not licensed to operate in Kenya, so basically they took us to the border, put us on a transfer and gave us to a different agency... very different from what we had paid for and we were expecting
Karibu Safari and Robert demonstrated their incompetence from the information stage until the organization stage of our trip.
More specifically we experienced the following issues:
1) they sold us a package with max 6 people in the van and for 4 days there were 7 people in the car
2) WIFI at lodges and hotels, Robert told us that there was WIFI at the lodges and hotel in Kenya but there was not WIFI in any of the lodges in Kenya & Tanzania, the quality of the lodges and the services offered was ridiculous, we spoke with other travelers and our lodges were the cheapest and the worst ones that you can find...
3) Waiting time, on the way from masai mara to lake nakuru, we have to wait 3 hours in the middle of the road for an other car to change passengers and due to this inconvenient we lost our night game drive to lake nakuru
4) Lake nakuru to Amboseli trip: they told us that was 4 hours driving when it took more than 10 hours due to the fact that we have to go to Nairobi to pick an other tourist and got stuck in the traffic
5)Passing from Kenya to Tanzania, we had to wait 4 hours, the transfer that Karibu arranged for us did not have valid documents to pass the border, as a result of it a group of 14 people spent 4 hours with 40 degrees waiting.... a taxy would have costed $30 and would have avoided our group of 4 people waiting 4 hours.
The result of this 4 hours waiting time was the shift of lake manyara and the cancellation of our night at ngorongoro camp, again this is not what we have paid for and with a little bit of care and attention should have been avoided, we were not paying the price for a budget safari and there are not excuses for this lack of organization, an agency who arrange a crossborder transfer with a car who has not documents should be closed straight away....
6) We were in the group with Tanya (you can read the other 1 star review) and we agree with everything that she said, Karibu staff was just rude and careless promising things that they were not willing to do just looking how to get few more dollars...

I really cannot believe that the 5 stars review are genuine, personally we had a terrible experience and the worst element was the discussion with Robert and the other Karibu staff who wanted to be right and cannot accept the evidence, after several discussion they apologized and they refused to offer a compensation for all the inconvenience that we suffered.

Robert and his staff think that the fact that they have not left us in the middle of the road is a success, they have no idea of what it means customer service and they think that tourists are just chicken to get money out of it, they cannot understand customer need and if they only wanted to, they could have offered a much better service making customers happy and giving value for the money spent

Diana Contreras   –  
United Kingdom UK
Visited: June 2015 Reviewed: Jul 12, 2015

20-35 years of age  |  Experience level: first safari

Miss sold safari package, asked for a refund and never got even an apology. Total rip off
1/5

1) Number of passengers in the cars, we have agreed for MAX 6 passenger and for several days there were 7 people in the car making the game drive very uncomfortable since there is no space for everybody to view from the roof.

2) Road Trip from Masai Mara until Nakuru
We and other 4 clients has to wait for 3 hours at the restaurant for a connecting van/safari group (coming from the same place!!!).
This delay meant that we were not able to have the evening game drive in Nakuru as per schedule

3) Road trip from Naroku until Amboseli
We passed to Nairobi to pick the chef and an other passenger instead than going directly to Amboseli, we found a lot of traffic to get in and out from Nairobi and this deviation made our travel longer of probably 2-3 hours and made our travel even longer, obviously we missed the evening game drive as advertised on the schedule

4) road trip from Amboseli until Arusha
the arrangement of this trip was just unbelieveble, we waited for 4 hours at the border with two other spanish tourist due to your arrangement (travel in a 15 pax) as we first had to get our visas (10am) wait for the shuttle (12am) and wait for another three hours for the other 15 people and one BUS!! to get their docs. As a result, we had lunch at 4pm and missed our afternoon game drive in Navaisha (arrived when it closed 6pm).

The result of this delay was the cancellation of the evening game drive to lake Manyara and the change of schedule for the rest of the trip in Tanzania

5) Lodges advertised, you advertised on your schedule Mara sidai camp and we stayed in a different one (Lenchada), without internet (as advertised and a very low quality) None of the lodges have internet in the contrary of what you told us.

6) Advertising a cross country package that you cannot offer, your company is cleraly not registred and authorized for doing business in Tanzania, and therefore you cannot sell a package without saying that it would be provided by a different company (Aruexpeditions).

Brian K   –  
United States US
Visited: March 2015 Reviewed: Jul 4, 2015

20-35 years of age  |  Experience level: 2-5 safaris

Nightmare Safari with EASTCO
1/5

Our trip with EASTCO is one that we will struggle to look back on with anything other than frustration. We were stuck with a guide who was rude, unprofessional, unsafe, had terrible communication and clearly cared nothing for us. And we were stuck with a company operating broken down vehicles, run down camps, and that clearly cared nothing for us. We found ourselves counting down the days until we could go home, and by the end of the trip, going along with ridiculous outings and schedules simply because it felt like the path of least resistance and our only survival mechanism.

Our troubles with EASTCO started before we even got out of Arusha when our guide, Melk, arrived 45 minutes later than our agreed upon time from the evening before and then spend an additional 20 minutes preparing the car while we waited. Then before we left the city, the engine started over heating causing him to pull over suddenly. After looking at the engine for a bit, Melk said that it would take an hour to fix. Assuming this was a low estimate – in fact he didn’t get to the crater until the next day – I said that this was not acceptable. Without saying a word to us that he was leaving, Melk then hopped on a motorcycle and road off leaving us in the truck surrounded by several guys that we hadn’t met. He came back after a few minutes and another truck arrived to take us to our hotel. It wasn’t the hotel listed on our itinerary, but it was nice so we didn’t say anything. The replacement driver suddenly stated that he was leaving as the hotel staff was greeting us. We tried to stop him to get more information on what was happening but all we could get out of him was that Melk had fixed the truck, was on the way, and would be here shortly. That turned out to be a lie since if Melk was on the road at that point he would have made it to the gate well before it closed at 6 pm. The replacement driver then quickly jumped in his truck and left before we could get his, Melk’s, or EASTCO’s contact info. We then enlisted the help of several of the staff at the hotel over the course of the evening and the next morning trying to contact EASTCO. The emergency contact number we were given didn’t answer. EASTCO’s number is not posted on their website. The hotel staff talked to folks at the hotel’s central office to try to find out who made the booking. Working with them before and after dinner and despite the hotel’s best efforts we got nowhere that night. The next morning we still had nothing and it was starting to eat into our time in the crater. Exploring Ngorongoro Crater has been a dream of mine for most of my life. I can see it from the hotel but I don’t have a way to get down there. Do we try to hire another company? Are there any guides that can take us into the crater at short notice? Suddenly Melk shows up and says – and this is an exact quote – “Ready to go?” “That’s all you have to say?” “The truck broke down. This happens.” “You couldn’t call the hotel?” “I didn’t have the hotel’s number.” This was an unprofessional and rude response, to say the least. This is a good time to point out that Melk would make 30 – 40 calls during a day of driving. He often claimed they were to the EASTCO office. Here’s five seconds of my time on the Internet hitting the front page of the hotel’s website. Their number is: (+255) 272545555. It is ironic that Melk continually took credit for being the car’s mechanic, and yet complained that it was not his fault when the car broke down.

After 30 minutes or so of awkward silence in the car Melk pulled over to offer a half-hearted apology which he followed with a rebuttal of my complaint that we paid a lot of money for the safari and we deserved to be treated better. Melk said that we may have paid a lot to EASTCO but we didn’t pay him a lot so it wasn’t relevant to him. He also offered that if he was unhappy then he would just follow exactly what’s on the itinerary and we wouldn’t see much game – basically what he did our second day in the crater.

It was clear that Melk had no ability to empathize with us – particularly when it came to us feeling safe. On our way out of Arusha he talked about how safe the city was and that anyone could walk alone any time of day – certainly not matching any other source of information we had heard. He would regularly pull over in villages without explaining, hop out of the car, and walk away with the keys in the ignition. On the way from the crater to Serengeti Horizons he pulled over and we were surrounded by several guys. One of them then jumped in the car with us. My wife asked “What’s going on?!” I said I had no idea. Melk then gave us a detailed explanation of the situation: “We give him ride.” At which point, we proceeded to drive into the desert, off the roads, and away from civilization. With a guide who clearly hated us, a complete stranger, no way of contacting the outside world, and no explanation or even a mention of “the camp is this way.” My wife has stated that she has never felt so unsafe in her life.

The accommodations at Serengeti Horizons did nothing to make us feel better. Our itinerary stated “semi-luxury” and EASTCO’s description of Serengeti Horizons included “full-size stylish wrought-iron or wooden beds with six-inch mattresses and all bedding”. In reality the mattress didn’t even cover the bed frame with the foot of the bed using a rolled pillow and cut up foam to form the mattress. The sheets had holes in them to match the level of quality. EASTCO’s tent “from the golden age of safaris” included a light plugged into a car battery – but no trash can so we pilled the trash in the corner of the tent. I was a bit nervous leaving our bags unprotected as we went off on safari so I made sure I left the zippers in exactly the same place for all bags so I would know if they were touched. When we came back one of the bags had been moved and the zippers were all the way to the other side of the bag. We couldn’t find anything missing so I didn’t bring it up, but what possible excuse could there be for this?

Our itinerary states that “the ecosystem is defined by the annual migration”. The migration was farther north than expected and Melk was apparently not going to take us to it or even bring it up. As he started to drive around the mostly barren plains the first morning at Serengeti Horizons we asked what the plan was. He detailed the day’s activities with “We do game drive.” No information was going to come from him but thankfully another couple at the camp had found out that the migration was in the central Serengeti. When we said we wanted to go there to see the migration Melk said nothing in return. Was he just ignoring us? Unbeknown to us one of his next phone calls was to the head office and they said it was ok but we had to pay the $131 entrance fee to the park. We agreed given that it would be our only chance to see the migration. At the gate we ran into one of the couples from the camp the previous night. They were more successful in their complaints. EASTCO had moved them north to another camp closer to the migration and was paying the park fee. There was no such deal for us though. Inside the park Melk started driving slowly and staring at trees along the main road near the entrance. When we asked he explained that he was looking for cats. If a leopard was in one of those trees right next to this busy road it would be surrounded by cars. When we complained that we wanted to see the migration instead - which is why we paid the park fee – he got mad. After finding the migration we stopped at a picnic site for lunch. When we got out of the car he drove off without explanation. We really weren’t sure if he was coming back.

At Serengeti Horizons we spoke with other EASTCO victims and heard stories about how their vehicles broke down and how one couple had to push their vehicle each time to get it started. We then heard complaints about the lack of radios in cars both for security and game viewing. Our second time into Ngorongoro Crater we were focused on getting a good look at a rhino. Cars started flying by us and Melk went off on one of his lectures about the evils of radio calls. We finally got a view of what everyone was headed toward and it was a rhino. We went over and got an ok view of it though it was slowly headed away. With a radio call we might have gotten a better view. Melk said that just one EASTCO car has a radio and that’s for security reasons. If we breakdown outside of cellphone coverage how does another EASTCO vehicle having a radio help us?

Our second day in the crater didn’t hold much interest for Melk. He drove past the hippo pool lunch spot and when we started getting hungry he sped past most of the second half of the crater. The lunch spot was in the forest near the exit. He parked us under a tree with the roof open. A monkey came down trying to get our food and I asked if we should close the roof. Melk explained “No”. The monkey jumped in the car a few minutes later and my wife and I jumped out with Melk chuckling. The monkey stole some of our lunch and Melk wanted us to get back in the car to finish the rest. I said “No” and Melk finally moved the car away from the tree. Melk was already on the phone again when my wife asked me what I wanted to do. I said “I just want this week to be over.” I’m not sure if Melk heard but when he got off the phone he left the vehicle to pout for a while. We ended up buying our own replacement lunch back at the hotel. Melk certainly wasn’t going to. He drove us the last bit of forest and then turned around to leave. I believe he put lunch near the end of the loop so he could hurry getting us to lunch and then claim that he “already drove all the roads”. My wife – who had continuously gone out of her way to be outrageously nice to him – said that we wanted to spend a bit more time in the forest. Melk replied with an ugly “Do you see any other roads in the forest?” When we agreed to leave after a bit Melk committed what I believe was his worst act of the week. He punched the gas with us standing in the back and wildly drove up the switchbacks no doubt angry at us. My wife sat down first and I was trying to catch a few last pictures of the crater. She had to warn me that a big turn was coming and I barely sat down in time. Melk whipped around the corner and I’m sure I would have been injured without her warning.

EASTCO held other nasty surprises for us to finish out the trip. In Mosquito Town our tour included being dropped in a tourist trap where we were asked to look around because we were their first customers in 4 weeks! We then went to Boundary Hill where we were taken on a nature walk. I managed to get all the way up Kilimanjaro and back without falling but I fell on their trail – as did my wife. She was uninjured but I was dealing with a shoulder injury for the next month. The last part of the climb involved 30 minutes of climbing back up the hill while walking through thick vegetation. The binder in the hotel room states that you shouldn’t walk through plants because they contain ticks and dangerous snakes. Something we seriously doubted our “guides” could protect us against at the pace they were moving. They apparently take every guest on this hike but they can’t cut a path or find one that doesn’t involve being in almost continuous contact with one bush or another.

Nikolay Zagrebelnyy   –  
Kenya KE
Visited: January 2015 Reviewed: Jul 4, 2015

20-35 years of age  |  Experience level: 2-5 safaris

FRAUD ALERT - this tour Company is defrauding tourists
1/5

In January 2015 “Bushtroop Tours & Safaris” company from Nairobi, Kenya refused to return the rental car deposit. We regarded this situation as a fraud and highly recommend extreme caution in any dealings with “Bushtroop Tours & Safaris” and personally with Jacqueline Mwathe and especially Moses Mutiva Ombeva.

My name is Nikolay Zagrebelnyy. I am 34 years old and I live in St. Petersburg, Russia.


In January 2015, me and my wife Natalia Klementyeva traveled in Africa: Kenya - Uganda - Rwanda - Congo - Burundi - Tanzania - Kenya together by car. The total mileage was about 5000 kilometers. This was our third visit to Kenya and sixth in Africa.


The car was rented in Bushtroop Tours & Safaris, Toyota RAV4, 2010, registration number KCB-573G. The company based in Nairobi, Kenya. Bushtroop Tours & Safaris has been selected on the Internet recommendations and the car availability. Our previous companies from Nairobi or could not be contacted or did not have the right car at the desired time. Many times we took a car in various countries and have never had problems, including previous trips to Kenya.


The car was given 31.12.2014, in good technical condition. Prospective route was agreed with Bushtroop Tours & Safaris, we made the contract and received the necessary documents. We paid the full rental price and a deposit - 1200 USD in cash.


When returning to Nairobi on 01/31/2015, we returned the car without any damage, which was confirmed by representatives of Bushtroop Tours & Safaris Jacqueline Mwathe and her colleague.

Despite this, Jacqueline Mwathe and her college refused to return the deposit, citing the fact that they put our deposit to the bank, and today is Saturday evening and the bank is closed.


At our request, the company chief Moses Mutiva Ombeva arrived and confirmed this information, also refused to return the deposit.


Bushtroop Tours & Safaris offered to transfer money to the bank card, or through Western Union. Moses Mutiva Ombeva Ombeva written receipt with a promise to transfer money and signed the contract.


The fact that the signature on the receipt does not match the signature in the other documents, I found only in the preparation of this site. Nevertheless, I guarantee that this signature of Moses Mutiva Ombeva.

The situation raises many questions, but in was already late evening and to return flight was only a few hours, so we went to the airport. At the airport Jacqueline personally promised to transfer money tomorrow. At that moment I almost believed her. We passed the car and flew home.

After four months, we have not received the money. Several times I called Jacqueline on the phone. In the last conversation, she promised to transfer the money on 28 April. This has not happened.

Conversations:


We regarded this situation as a fraud of Bushtroop Tours & Safaris and personally Moses Mutiva Ombeva. We highly recommend extreme caution in any dealings with Bushtroop Tours & Safaris and personally with Jacqueline Mwathe and especially Moses Mutiva Ombeva.

Tania Paschen   –  
United Kingdom UK
Visited: June 2015 Reviewed: Jun 29, 2015

35-50 years of age  |  Experience level: over 5 safaris

3 day safari that really only added up to 1 day - promised refund never came!
1/5

I booked a 3 day safari to Amboseli with Karibu Safaris. I was told I would be joining a group on their way through from the Masaai Mara and be picked up at 12.00 midday. I was not picked up until 3.30, meaning that the game drive scheduled for that afternoon did not happen as we were travelling til 9.00 that night, and eating dinner almost at 10.00. I was also promised free water and a visit to a Massai village - neither happened. The group I joined had been told they would all get a window seat in the van - my arrival meant that there were 3 in a row on our seat, and we couldn't all stand up at once to do the game viewing when we finally got out into the park for a day. It was a good day, very average lunch, accommodation VERY basic, stinking toilets, 20 mins to get hot water etc The next day after a 2 hour game drive we had to drive to the Kenya / Tanzania border to drop off some of the group. This meant me sitting in the van for 2 hours in various carparks waiting for them to be sorted over the border. Not my problem, not what I paid for. So 3 days was two days driving and the equivalent of 1 day game viewing. Arrived back into Nairobi at 2.00pm - nothing like a full day there either. I asked for a refund, was told that I would be given $50 refund, I said $60 given the free water had not eventuated either, and so was told I would get $60. I sent account details, was told that it had gone to accounts, and now - typically - am not getting any replies to my enquiries. The trip was also run by Bigtime safaris, a totally different company I was just thrown onto. I have been travelling through Africa for 15 years and this was the most disappointing trip - lied to, oversold, bored sitting waiting in carparks while others had their trip sorted out and I couldn't get mine sorted, and then to be promised in various emails a refund only to have that fall by the wayside too. DO NOT GO WITH KARIBU!

Mark Bush   –  
United States US
Visited: June 2015 Reviewed: Jun 20, 2015

50-65 years of age  |  Experience level: over 5 safaris

High water levels have caused the flamingos to leave. This is not worth visiting at present.
Overall rating
1/5

High lake levels for the past 2 years have caused the flamingos to leave. Waterbuck, zebra, baboon, and other common wildlife remain, but don't go expecting to see the flamingo flock.

Genevieve Visited: January 2015 Reviewed: Jun 8, 2015

DO NOT TRUST THESE PEOPLE. They ripped me off TERRIBLY.
1/5

I previously wrote a review on this company for January 2015. IGNORE IT. please make your booking elsewhere. Unfortunately I discovered too late that these people ripped me off. They stole money from me which I could then not spend helping children from the poorest regions in Kenya. When they were caught out recently, they just denied everything and disappeared. I came to Kenya to set up my charity for abused children, which these people knew. They charged me what I now know to be extremely overpriced amounts for multiple driving services. Despite my best intentions for the poor children in Kenya, these people from this company still had the audacity to rip me off and steal from me. The amount they took from me has greatly deprived the little kids in my charity whose lives I am trying to save. I am ashamed that I trusted these people.

Monique   –  
South Africa ZA
Visited: March 2015 Reviewed: May 31, 2015

50-65 years of age  |  Experience level: over 5 safaris

Ni Refund for Booking
1/5

I have had a really bad experience with Ambula as did a friend of mine a few years back. I booked a trip in March for a trip to Victoria Falls at the end of June. At the beginning of if April I had to cancel the booking s I will be traveling overseas in business this is virtually 3 months in advance and I was told I would get a full refund and the it would take 4 to 6 weeks and could expect the refund the first week in May. It is now end of May and I still have not been paid my refund despite repeated requests.now my emails etc are being completely ignored. I just find this completely unacceptable. So I would never chose to use them again even though the prices are more reasonable than the bigger operators at least you would not get this experience with them

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